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 Post subject: D19 Butter Vans
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:01 pm
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Hi

75 Butter vans were built to Diagram 19, in 1899-1900 according to LNWR Wagons 2. Primarily it appears they were built to cope with the butter traffic from Ireland

So, did these wagons run as a Butter only train from Holyhead to one or several destinations or was it that several were attached to a passenger train? If so how many wagons were run in the train?

Pre 1911 they were in white livery, did this include white roofs? After 1911 they went to standard grey livery, so did this mean the roof was repainted in the same grey livery?

Cheers

David


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 Post subject: Re: D19 Butter Vans
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:35 am 
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Location: Woking, Surrey
These were goods wagons so could not be run in passenger trains. 75 seems a very large number, and one would suspect as often was the case with the LNWR greatly in excess of the number actually needed for the traffic. Obviously this is conjecture, but
from Holyhead one would imagine say 6-8 vans in a train to Mold Junction, but then of course these vans would be dispersed to different destinations. I would not expect butter to be imported every day.

The traffic does not seem to have lasted for long, as in 1911 these vans were re-designated as ordinary goods vans.

While painted white the roofs were white as well (se illustration in 'LNWR Liveries') and when painted grey the roofs were originally grey, soon weathering to nondescript dirt colour.

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Last edited by Philip Millard on Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: D19 Butter Vans
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:31 pm 
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Hi David,

My impression from studying WTTs is that butter traffic was imported via Grimsby and/or Hull. There were several trains which ran each week on the Guide Bridge - Stockport - Crewe axis, with at least one continuing to Bushbury for the W Midlands. They seem to have run only on Mondays and Tuesdays - was there a weekly boat service from Denmark? (lurpak special?).

I am at work at the mo, so can't check details, dates, times, destinations etc.

Butter to London would go via the GN, presumably, although I don't have any GNR WTTs to check.

I don't recall seeing any butter trains in the C&H WTTs, but I could be mistaken. I can check later, if you like. These would be Kerrygold specials, I suppose??!!??

Cheers, Reg


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 Post subject: Re: D19 Butter Vans
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:50 am 
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Reg - the butter vans were branded "Return to Holyhead". And I very much doubt that they would form a complete train.

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 Post subject: Re: D19 Butter Vans
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:01 pm 
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Posts: 325
Gents,

I queried the passenger train as the book Wagons 2 does state that I think 24 were vacum fitted, possibly one just piped through (I am at work without the book so dont quote me on this)

Kerrigold I do not know, but I think it says 113tons average was being shipped in to Holyhead in 1903 on a Sunday. With a wagon capacity of 7 tons, and tare weight of 5.19.3 (Again memory allowance) doesnt seem that each wagon could have carried alot. If my understanding of capacity and tare weight is right then you would need around 100 wagons for that kind of load.

So if we are talking a large quantity to be moved on the questions is was it a specfic 'express goods' train which then went to Mold, detached a few wagons for the North Wales area, dropped off some more for Liverpool/Mancheter, some off to Leeds and maybe the rest Birmingham and London at other goods yards/

Regards colour there is a note at the front of the book that says when painted grey from white in 1908/11, the grey was lighter than the standard grey, so in Precision paints terms would this be more LMS wagon grey than LNWR wagon grey?

Cheers

David


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 Post subject: Re: D19 Butter Vans
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:36 pm 
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David Bond wrote:
Gents,

I queried the passenger train as the book Wagons 2 does state that I think 24 were vacum fitted, possibly one just piped through (I am at work without the book so dont quote me on this)




I don't know where you got that idea from. None of these vans was vacuum fitted or piped.

113/7 = about 17 vehicles.

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 Post subject: Re: D19 Butter Vans
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:22 pm 
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A quick update, having been home and looked at some WTTs -

In July 1896 there was a 10.55am from Guide Bridge to Curzon St every Monday, arriving just after 2pm. Presumably the traffic would have left Grimsby (or Hull) in the early morning, exchanged from MS&L to LNW at Guide Bridge. There were also two "conditional" trains on Tuesday mornings, leaving Leeds at 1.50 and 3.10am. These would have carried traffic from Hull via NER, I guess.

East coast butter for other destinations would have travelled to Manchester, Crewe etc via the NE Division main line. I don't have copies of NED WTTs, but I was looking at the July 1896 one a few weeks ago, and am sure I noticed a few other butter trains on Mons and Tues.

I do have a complete May 1903 WTT, and this shows the following Express Butter trains on the NED:
alt Mons 6.20 Copley Hill to London Road - puts off at Micklehurst for Liverpool
alt Mons 8.50 Leeds to Liverpool
MO 10.50 Guide Bridge to Birmingham Curzon St
MO-C 11.40 Heaton Norris to Liverpool - probably vans off the train(s) above,
when sufficient to justify getting an engine and crew out
MO 10.30 Mirfield to London Road
alt Mons-C 10.55 Copley Hill to London Road via Heaton Norris
MO-C 11.40 Copley Hill to London Road
(the Tuesday morning trains are no longer shown, at least not as butter trains)

the 10.50 train ran at least until Feb 1909, probably a year or so later, although by 1905 it departed at 10.45. By 1909 there was also a 8.5am from Heaton Norris to Curzon St, arriving at 11,37. In Feb 1911 and Feb 1913 this had become an 8.30 Micklehurst to Curzon St, but the Guide Bridge train had ceased to run by 1911. It seems that Micklehurst was something of a marshalling centre for butter traffic on Monday mornings!

I am not sure how much of the Grimsby or Hull traffic would have been loaded in LNWR wagons, presumably at least some was in MS&L and NE wagons respectively.

I have also found that Lurpak dates back to 1888 when a group of Danish producers formed a Co-Op to market their butter. It was registered as a trade mark in 1903 to deter imitations. Danish butter was in demand throughout the UK. I seem to recall that the GWR also had a butter train (after 1900) which came off the GCR at Banbury. I would like to find an expert on shipping history who can comment on the idea of imports by a weekly boat service.

I'll have a look at the Holyhead traffic tomorrow, if time permits ...

Reg


Last edited by reginstone on Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: D19 Butter Vans
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:23 pm 
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Location: Wellingborough
Quote
the book that says when painted grey from white in 1908/11, the grey was lighter than the standard grey
UNQUOTE
I would very much like to know where that information came from. I hope it was not assumed from one old black and white photograph which seems to show a light colour.

As for the colour of roofs, I don't know the answer, but remember these had iron roofs, so would not necessarily be painted with the usual white lead - though they might have been.

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: D19 Butter Vans
PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:37 pm 
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Posts: 163
Location: Deep in the Dordogne, Commune of Loubejac
Iron roofs/rooves for butter traffic seems a bit of a shot in the foot, even catering for English/Welsh weather, but as I understand it they were actually wooden boards with iron sheeting, so maybe it did help with insulation (although led to severe leaking so was subsequently discontinued). Model with balsa covered by kitchen foil? But if so, don't mention it in the presence of a certain wagon/carriage kit producer, who waxes more than lyrical about the 'absurdity' of employing tissue paper to represent canvas roof covering (something I still practice on my 7mm vans, sorry Bill) ...

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 Post subject: Re: D19 Butter Vans
PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:51 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:19 pm
Posts: 323
I have looked at the C&H WTTs for 1896, 1903 and 1908, the only years for which I have complete copies. As Philip suspected, there were no Butter Trains (as there were on the NED). So the D19 vans must have been conveyed by one of tghe express goods trains from Holyhead, or more likely on the two daily perishable services. The latter were 8.50pm Holyhead to Broad Street, and 3.0am Holyhead to Chester.

I'm not sure whether or not I have the details of types of wagons allowed on LNWR Perishable trains (oil boxes, screw couplings etc?). They certainly ran in faster timings than Express Goods, with fewer stops for exam etc.

I don't yet have Wagons Vol 2 (shame on me!) - so can anyone confirm that 24 of them were vac fitted? I don't recall seeing them in the list of vac fitted wagons that I compiled recently.

No doubt there was a good demand for Irish butter in London and the home counties, and as far as possible wagons for such destinations would be put on the 8.50. Butter for places in the north west, and exchange with other companies, would go on the 3.0, I guess, and transferred to other trains at Chester.

Reg


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