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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:51 am 
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Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:43 pm
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Location: Wellingborough
Most photographs of D17B Crystal Palace brake vans show heavy springs with auxiliary coil springs at their ends. However, some pictures in later days show conventional links at the ends, including one van which looks otherwise as built and in excellent condition.

Does anyone have any information on whether this was a change, in which case what came first? and when?

Thank you.

Mike


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:16 pm 
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Posts: 325
Mike,

Our own website has a page on the 17b as per the below, not sure it is really definitive in the information you are looking for, but the picture shows quite clearly the coil springs that you mention

http://lnwrs.org.uk/Wagons/brakes/Diag017B.php

Best

David


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:19 pm 
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Location: Wellingborough
Yes David, that i show they were built. Here is one of the LMS pictures showing no coil springs bit simple links.

Now, I have a hunch but absolutely no evidence at all as to when and why the change was made. Anyone have suggestions?

Mike


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:49 am 
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Since there have been no suggestions, here is my starter for ten:

Official photographs show a van, presumed to be the prototype, with less windows than other examples and that had the coil springs, so they were not an improvement introduced sometime during production.

Some vans had LMS numbers in the L&Y series, presumed to have been built at Earlestown in 1923, and they too have the coil springs.
Production continued at least until 1924, but probably no later. All the examples preserved and the vast bulk of photographs in LMS and BR liveries still show coil springs. I know of no photographs in LNWR livery without coil springs.

After the Grouping carriages and wagons were not always overhauled at the works which built them and although still fairly new, these coil springs were non-standard and as new longer vans were introduced, D17b would have been used increasingly on secondary services. So, my theory is that as they wore or broke, some coil springs were removed and replaced by the simple links seen in the second picture which would have been easy and cheap to do. Might they even have come from scrapped D17a vans?

But I have no evidence whatsoever for that guess and hope somebody may have a snippet which adds weight to the idea, or disproves it.

Mike


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:35 am 
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Location: Woking, Surrey
Your supposition sounds very plausible to me, but like you I have no actual evidence. But this is typical of the information which is now lost in the mists of time, as the kind of repair/modification you mention would not have been recorded. Only the photographs remain.

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"A man would do nothing, if he waited until he could do it so well that no one at all would find fault with what he has done." - Cardinal Newman


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:56 pm 
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Thank you Philip. Sometimes it is good to have a sanity check with somebody!

Mike


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:20 am 
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I would have thought that if the links were a repair they were pretty unusual, or even unique. The coil springs would not have broken very often, and if one did break and the van had to be converted to the link suspension then there would be 7 coil springs spare to repair other vans. But the links may be a late-build modification rather than a repair.

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"A man would do nothing, if he waited until he could do it so well that no one at all would find fault with what he has done." - Cardinal Newman


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:56 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:01 pm
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Mike,

I think your thought trail seems very logical. With these brake vans now not necessarily visiting their home works for repairs it is very plausible that the works repairing a vehicle would have just carried out a conversion to ‘standard parts’ than wait for spares to be shipped from Earlestown.

I don’t know if the information you seek might not be included in LNWR Wagons 3? This book I believe is due out hopefully in February and will also be hopefully be available from your friendly Sales Officer at a discounted price. (End of plug)

Kind Regards

David


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